- Home
- Christianity
- The Three Most Important Skills in Witnessing to Hindus
The Three Most Important Skills in Witnessing to Hindus
- By Cathy Douglas
- Published 01/4/2009
- Christianity
-
Rating:
Cathy Douglas
Space does not permit me here to teach you a basic evangelism course. I recommend you go through a good course like Evangelism Explosion, then use what I teach here to adapt the presentation for a Hindu audience. Furthermore, if you would like ideas on outreach strategies for your area, please contact me.
Skill #1: Ability to listen and ask non-threatening, perceptive questions
Does it surprise you that the first skill should be to listen, not talk? Aren’t we the ones with the message they need to hear?
Yes, but who likes one-sided monologs? I once talked with a Muslim for about 20 minutes casually after a class we were taking. He would say something about what he believed in, then I would summarize by repeating, “So you are saying that….” Three times in that brief conversation he interrupted himself to say, “You’re actually listening to me! All my other Christian friends just get mad and tell me I’m going to hell.” And he was not doing all the talking, either. He too listened politely while I shared my spiritual experiences and beliefs.
You know you have listened to someone when you can repeat back in summary form what they said and they agree that you got it right. Here are some good ways to summarize: “What I hear you saying is…” or “So you believe that…” or “I guess you feel like….”
Are you afraid that such listening will only encourage the other person to talk more, and you won’t get a word in edgewise? On the contrary, it will encourage them to respect and listen to you, when you step in at the right moment to share your view.
Sometimes Christians raise questions or issues which leave the non-Christian feeling threatened:
*Accusations about bad behavior of Hindus, such as persecuting Christians
*Insinuations about their gods or ways of worship
*Pointing out the poverty in India, oppression, casteism, or other negative Hindu customs
AVOID THESE!
What are some good types of questions, which can lead to mutual respect and sharing of views?
*Tell me how you pray
*May I know your opinion about God?
*Why do you choose this path to God, what do you like about it?
*Is your belief/philosophy satisfying to you?
Remember, tone of voice has a lot to do with communicating respect or disdain.
Once I really got cornered by a Hindu temple leader, when a Christian began raising threatening, accusative issues. I had been teaching a Hindu evangelism seminar in a church and took the group on a field trip to a local temple, where a Hindu lady gave us a guided tour. Defying my clear instructions, the Christian challenged, “If Hinduism is so good, why is India in such a mess?” After some exasperated exchange, the guide turned to me, knowing I was the leader, and posed her own challenge: “Okay, so just tell me why I am going to hell?” Although I could calmly sidestep this affront and answer her gently, we don’t want to get into this kind of situation. Asking good questions and respectful listening will gain you respect and the invitation to share in return.
Skill #2: Ability to express gospel truths avoiding Christian jargon
Okay, so you’ve asked your friend some good questions, listened to his/her answers, and now you’re ready to give them the gospel. They need to know that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead / resurrected, and they need to believe in God, be born again, get saved, convert to Christianity, accept the Lord, and be redeemed. Right? Wrong!
All of the above standard Christian phrases will not communicate properly to a Hindu. They will likely produce confusion or even anger. A teenage Hindu girl wrinkled her whole face when I said “Jesus rose from the dead.” With a look of total bewilderment she said, “Rose from the dead, rose from the dead – what’s that?” I once asked my Hindi teacher the word for resurrection. He didn’t know! Resurrection is obviously a concept Hindus don’t think about even in their own language. Nowadays I say, “Three days after being killed, Jesus got up alive in the same body. That’s what ‘resurrection’ means, the same person coming back to life in the same body.” Longer, but that’s what it takes to communicate the meaning. What’s the point of settling for the handy term when it doesn’t do the job?
Keep “Christianity” out of your witnessing as much as possible. Jesus is the issue, not religion. Instead of saying “Christianity teaches,” I say “Jesus teaches” or “The Bible says.” Don’t just offhandedly refer to “the Lord.” Always specify “the Lord Jesus.” Even “God” has to be clarified! What is your Hindu friend’s concept of “god”? Is it an impersonal force, just a term of convenience (some Hindus have told me that). Is god just an inner state to be realized by the individual? Is it the monistic concept that god is everything, one with creation? Saying “God loves you” will not make much sense if that is their concept of god.
“Born again,” like “resurrected,” conveys the meaning of “reincarnated” to the Hindu – implying Jesus came back later to be incarnated in another body. “Saved” or “salvation” as a Hindu concept is quite different from the biblical meaning. “Redeemed” will draw a blank. Don’t mention “convert” unless you’re prepared for a fight. Heaven and hell tend to be treated by the Hindu as mythological concepts useful for keeping children in line but not for adults. Or worse, as emotional blackmail for devious missionaries to frighten naïve people into converting.
Work at replacing these handy terms that don’t work with longer, yet simple explanations. Try telling it all as a personal narrative (your testimony – no, your “faith journey”) rather than as a theological treatise. Emphasize the person of Jesus Christ rather than your involvement in church or religious activities. Emphasize themes like power over sin, healing (emotional and physical), experiencing God’s love, discipleship to a living Guru. These are themes that appeal to many Hindus.
Skill #3: Familiarity with Hindu Apologetics
“Apologetics” means a reasoned defense of the Christian faith. Hindu apologetics means addressing the objections and misunderstandings that Hindus typically raise. Since this is a very large topic, I cannot cover it properly in this brief space. I can only hint at the answers and urge you to do more study. Some good websites aimed at Hindu or general apologetics are:
www.Yeshusamaj.org
www.karma2grace.org
www.sakshitimes.com
http://www.indiago.org/index.php?action=websiteview&WebSiteID=38&WebPageID=550
Here are the common issues that I have found among Hindus, and the barest hint of an answer. I could write pages about each.
Christians are intolerant. Some things shouldn’t be tolerated. Jesus preached something much harder to follow – love.
Christians are arrogant. Not if our source of truth is outside ourselves. We didn’t invent it, we only believe it.
Christians should not convert other people. That statement itself is trying to “convert” or persuade us to a point of view.
Christians have done a lot of evil in the world. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Christians, no throwing stones back, now! Define a Christian as a follower of Christ, i.e. one who does what He does. Condemn any bad behavior, regardless of who did it.
There are many paths to God. Only if God is reachable by our effort. But the Bible says he is not, and that he alone provided the way by sending Jesus from heaven to earth.
All religions teach the same thing. No, they don’t. But the point of proving they don’t is not to create division between us but so that we can all seek for reality and truth.
Christians should not eat meat, that is a sin of violence. All the vegetarianism in the world cannot save the life of one animal. Adding rules that no one can keep doesn’t help to save us from our sins.
Jesus went to the Himalayas to learn from Hindu ascetics and eventually died there and his tomb is in Kashmir. Researching this produces no credible historical evidence. What would the creator of the world need to learn from people who are searching for truth themselves?
I want to follow Jesus, but my family members are opposed. Advice can depend on age; in general, for an adult, eliminate unnecessary offenses like “converting to Christianity,” reduce faith in Christ to its bare absolutes, and prepare to count the cost.
I am following Jesus; now what shall I do about observing Hindu holidays? Similar to above, think of how to keep peace with family while maintaining the absolutes.
I am a Hindu; can I marry a Christian (and vice versa)? Please don’t. (Nobody ever likes this answer). Those who ask this are already in love; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Jesus and Krishna are really the same. Hardly. The superficial similarities in some claims are overshadowed by the far more numerous differences. Besides, one is blue and the other is brown. DON’T say that to a Hindu!
Spread The Word
44 Responses to "The Three Most Important Skills in Witnessing to Hindus"
|
said this on 28 May 2009 10:08:08 AM EDT
What you are doing is denouncing a religion and trying to project Christianity as a religion which is superior to Hinduism. I do not understand why you have to indulge in this act.
Why are you not content within the realms of your religion? Do you not get sleep till you denounce other religions everyday? Do you feel content when you deep dive into history and learn that Christianity has grown, spread on basis of violence and money? Do you feel good after you have changed the demography of a region? Would like the demographies of your nation/ area changed? Do you feel extremely contended after fooling illiterate and poor people and buying their religion by money power? Why don't you engage in a much better activity like returning the money and wealth looted, pillaged, robbed by Christians from India back to India along with interest? |
Author/Admin)|
said this on 30 May 2009 12:39:24 AM EDT
I would like to respond to your comments to my article. First, both you and I based what we wrote on an underlying assumption. Mine was in regard to the Christian reason and motivation for telling others about Jesus Christ. I wrote to Christians who would understand what that assumption was, so I didn't spell it out in the article. The assumption I actually made is different from the assumption you believed and based your comments on. Your comments are not based on anything I actually wrote in the article, but only on some common mistaken beliefs and misunderstandings about Christianity and conversion.
My assumption underlying the article was: Christians have good news about Jesus Christ to share with Hindus and all people of the world. My audience knows Jesus Christ, His power and love, they have experienced life transformation and freedom from sin, falsehood, darkness, and death - and they want to share with others how they can experience this "salvation" too. The assumption you believe is that Christians think they are superior and are trying to force their religion on everybody else. My audience knows that they did not experience Jesus Christ as a result of their superior effort or achievement, but by coming to a point of humility, admitting they have nothing with which to achieve salvation, so they must receive it by faith as a gracious gift from God. This is the message we bring to others. Friend, I wonder if you actually read my article. I nowhere denounced Hinduism in any way nor did I say anything about promoting Christianity as a religion. Let me review my points: 1. Christians, learn to ask good questions of Hindus and listen respectfully to the answers. 2. Eliminate jargon from your speech that Hindus won't understand. 3. Learn to address the typical misunderstandings and objections that Hindus have about the message of Jesus Christ. I wish you would ask good, respectful questions instead of the cynical, argumentative accusations you made. Then maybe you would reach the point of understanding what we Christians actually are saying and doing. You ask, "Why are you not content within the realms of your religion?" Friend, Hinduism as a religion commonly accepts that all paths to God, all truth-claims, are equally valid. Jesus Christ says, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to God except through me." These two claims are not compatible. We Christians are content within the realms of what our God teaches, and that includes sharing His good news with others - respectfully, intelligently, and lovingly - which was the point of my article. You are not content with the fact that there is irreconcilable incompatibility between the claims of Hinduism and Christ. Thus you felt you had to speak up, persuade me of the wrongness of my belief. You are attempting to convert me to your Hindu way of thinking - that no one should convert others. Do you not see the inconsistency? You seem to hold the common misconception of conversions bought by deception or money. Let me describe for you just one aspect of what I do to share the good news of Jesus with Hindus. I counsel people from India by email who have come to our websites asking spiritual help. Many young men in India are addicted to pornography. Feeling ashamed and powerless, they want to be free. I tell them about the love and power of Jesus Christ, the only God who came to earth and lived a perfect sinless life, treated women with respect, taught men and women to live pure lives, and gave His own life as a sacrifice for our sin. More than that, Jesus Christ got up alive again in the same body after being killed to show His power over death and ability to give His followers new life. I tell these young men that the same Lord Jesus can give them power over sin. I give them the Bible's teachings about purity, grace, forgiveness, and salvation. The young men I have counseled have become free from pornography and sexual sin and give credit to the power of Jesus Christ to transform lives. Do you find this objectionable, friend? What are you doing to transform the lives of those caught in degrading sins? I have read the Gita, Quran, Adi Granth, Ramayana, and many other books and have not found a god or guru with the power and salvation that Jesus offers. When people find what they are looking for, they will stick with that. You should not begrudge those who accept Jesus as their God because of what He has done for them. In my internet ministry, I have had many Hindus and Muslims ask me, "I want to convert to Christianity. What benefit will you give me? Will you help me come to your country?" I have always refused such opportunists. We give spiritual help freely to all, and for those who believe that Jesus is the true God and want to follow Him sincerely, I teach them how to be Jesus' disciples. I rarely even use the word "convert." You are concerned about changing demographics of a region. I can empathize with a Hindu family's concern when a family member chooses a different god than the dictates of their tradition or community. This is a complex social issue and cannot be addressed here. But be assured that I, along with the great majority of Christian evangelists, make every attempt to urge new believers to be responsible and loving in their actions and attitudes toward family members. I would also like to remind you that Hindus are actively changing the demographics of the world and have been doing so for thousands of years. Hindus from ancient times strongly influenced civilization in Southeast Asia, and in recent years, have made strong inroads into Europe and America. Many American Christians I meet are very anxious and even angry when Hindu temples are built in their neighborhoods. Do you know what I tell them? I say, "Remember what Jesus commands us, to love our neighbors as ourselves. Welcome these Hindus into your neighborhoods and share the love of Jesus with them." Your view of history would be different if you had a better understanding of what it means to be a Christian, and the difference between following Jesus Christ, and Christianity the institutional religion. Most of us evangelical Christians understand that difference and actively talk about it in our churches, and teach it to our children and to new believers. The original followers of Jesus Christ became known as Christians ("little Christs" in Greek) because terms like "Brothers, disciples, followers" were too vague. The true meaning of being a Christian can never mean "being born to Christian parents" or "being a citizen of a so-called Christian nation" or "belonging to a religious institution." The Bible's definition of a Christian or follower of Jesus is summed up thus: "Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did" (1 John 2:6). So whenever you see in history cases of violence, looting, and pillaging, you can ask yourself, Is that walking as Jesus did? Since that is not how Jesus acts, you can conclude that those who do that are not true followers of Jesus. We who truly love and follow Jesus today also despise such behavior. When it is done by people who call themselves Christians, we are also ashamed and apologetic. But that does not change who Jesus is and why we still follow Him. Please be careful about making loose generalizations about people under a certain "name." Should I look at the fact that most persons in prisons in India are Hindus and conclude something about Hinduism? We have to look deeper, not superficially, at major complex issues. Friend, I hope you will continue this discussion. Please respond. |
|
said this on 06 Jun 2009 10:03:26 PM EDT
My beliefs are not based on mistakes and misunderstandings. I have been in UK for approximately 16 months and in US for approximately 8 months. The general local people I interacted with are gentlemen.
The real problem starts when a person tries to teach or tries to get into discussion involving faiths. I have had to counter Christian preachers when I was in UK and India although I did not do anything to attract their attention. It also means that the persons I encountered had an agenda to target those who were apparently not Christians to convert them into Christians. If you were content then you would have never written about Hindus. The fact that you wrote about Hindus shows that you are not at content. As far as my writing is concerned it stems from the discontent that arises when someone tries to demean Hinduism and fool poor and illiterate people. What you say or term as "Good News" is a matter of belief and it is not current... It is quite old... And therefore is not news. Truth for a person is what he believes in. The belief may be wrong but for the person the truth remains belief. One should not try to invade into belief of others. If you are happy, then celebrate interested people will join your celebration. I went through one of the sites which clearly mentions Shri Krishna as liar and Jesus Christ as true in pretext of trying to answer a question "Whether Krishna and Jesus are Same?"... The answer to the question even if asked should be a plain and simple no without getting into the details... Whatever has been said cannot be undone and the spirit in which the same has been said can be recognized by anyone and is contrary to the message you try to preach. You may get an opinion poll on the article from people around the world. As a Hindu, I can remember that till date I never questioned any one about their faith and rituals... No brahmin or priest asked me to go out and inquire about practices of what is called as other religion... They always helped me to pray and discover the path of truth for myself and in Hindu prayers there is always space for well being of everyone... As a child, I remember, Bible used to be sent to my home and other homes of Hindus by post (In India... Mass distribution of "The Only Book" uncalled or unwarranted for) and our family and families in neighborhood did know why? I do not understand why Christians have to ask "good questions" to Hindus... I haven't read Bible and all I know that it is the righteous duty of every person to practice his or her dharma with honesty and unwavering commitment to truth... One should stick to his or her dharma than trying to poke nose into other persons dharma... Hindus do not carry any animosity against any person of any faith. As individuals and group, Hindus are happy and content and do not cultivate misunderstandings or objections... This is evident by peaceful existence of all religions/ beliefs/ dharma of world except Christianity and Islam in one melting pot... India My questions are just and proper and not cynical and argumentative. Basics never change overnight with happening of an event however remarkable it may seem to anyone. You don't even know an iota about Hinduism. Hinduism is not religion. Hinduism and it's teachings cannot be translated into English. In Hinduism everything is creation of God who is supreme... Has no Beginning, no Middle and no End... Whatever has been created has been created by God and therefore, any path a person may adopt to realize God is ok. This also explains why Jews and Parsis and other countless helpless folks are able to live in peace, with dignity & honor in our land. This also explains why Jainis, Buddhists, Sikhs could evolve from Hinduism and exist peacefully in this great land. Hinduism does not mention about other religions like Christianity and Islam do and what should be done with followers of other religion... The outcome such teachings is far more than what you say above... I think you would be wise enough to realize what has been the result. There is no inconsistency... I am not trying to convert you to Hinduism... I am not interested or disturbed by your beliefs till they translate into action that disturbs me... I do not compare religions... I do not know about Christianity and neither I am interested... No one from India goes out, distributes money, hands out "A Book... The Only Book" and tries to convert people of other faith. All I am trying to convey is that do not disturb peace... Nothing has been achieved by anyone by converting tribals of Africa who are now in a permanent state of war, chaos, and needs for alms. This is Kaliyuga... The age of continuous decline in moral values... Please be clear to yourself whether Jesus was god or messenger of god... Pornography, Child Pornography, Sodomy all are available on net and originate from where you might know... Don't you think you should do something good for Playboy folks or Hustler Folks or... The way you send out the decisive statement in end tries to convey that you are the only person upholding the torch of truth... If my Christian friends or my Christian employee comes to me for counseling, I try to show him a way to remove his problem and motivate him to overcome his problems. I do not preach that so and so Hindu lord said so and so and therefore you should become a follower of Hindu Lord and your problems will disappear. As far as money and deceptions are concerned, it is true although as an individual you may not be practicing. I find it objectionable because you tell people directly or indirectly that you sinned because your religion is weak... People do not come to you because they know you... People come to you because you consciously try to reach people with the ulterior motive of reminding that they have committed sin... Who in this world does not commit sin... Every person has committed sin and will commit sin as this is the true identity of the world created by God we live in I do not begrudge Jesus. Your belief that Jesus is the greatest God or Messenger of God and the only path of salvation does not disturb me nor I find it objectionable. What I find objectionable is berating others and you did it above. That does not mean that the true vanishes... Does it? If one believes that world is flat and sun revolves around it does it become true? The history of the world speaks otherwise... Even with your teachings and deeds which you later on forget to your convenience by denying and disowning persons as not true followers of Jesus ... Everywhere where warring Christians went, they went hand in gloves with evangelists and other torch bearers of Christianity, The only thing remained as this group of warriors and religious torch bearers left was chaos, disturbance, lack of peace, blood, gory... That includes India... Prove this is lie Let us combat this with fact and figures. Please furnish the %age and number of resident Hindus and Christians during following time intervals in India and Christian Countries. Also let's decide how many and what type of Hindus go to Christian Country and how and why... And what type of Christians come into this country... How... And what they do 1600 1800 1900 1947 1960 1970 1980 1990 2000 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Going by the last definition, even you will not be a Christian for no one on earth can walk the path as Jesus, the only son of God did. Everyone has the right to reach out to seek truth in the most convenient way a person can... Every sane and rational person has the capacity to think , question and decide what is good and what is not... How can anyone force a person to blindly do what others are doing... This is nothing but killing independency of thought, practice and right to live and exist in a manner that does not disturb any one else. This is slavery worser than natives of Africa went through. I fail to understand with all sanity and imagination better than Warner Brothers special effects, how will events in History like World War I, World War II, Dropping of Atom Bomb on Japan, Genocide of Jews, Forcing Hindus into World War I and World War II, Killing Hindus, Destroying their places of worship, their sacred texts, bombing of Vietnam, killing innocents in Iraq, Afghanistan will become beautiful if I look it thru lens of Christianity... Please explain this without fail... I need to witness miracle how the preceding events will become beautiful This is called as convinience of truth for ulterior motives... For example, Christians came to India... Warriors along with evangelists... warriors got engaged in murder, loot, pillage, rape, killings while evangelists got engaged in conversion based on fear, violence, money power. I do believe that Jesus didn't teach that his followers should do this but it happened. I do believe that righteous followers of Jesus, evangelists should have stopped the warriors but they didn't and forgot teachings of Jesus to their convinience and everyone including you still want to enjoy the money and wealth looted from a country. All this does not change Jesus... Jesus remains as great as he always was... I would be extremely happy if you put forth your suppressed but already formed views on Hindus in open with the most bold and reverberating sound on earth so it transcends universe. You may also look into the fact how many persons in prisons of country like US are chrostians and form the same belief I have... I want to make one thing clear to you... I have at no time even remotely desired to denounce any religion. For me all religions are ok and they do not disturb my dharma. However individuals and groups who try to demean my dharma disturb me. My English will not match the wit, respect and humor that you possess and I apologize for any shortfall in respect that is righteously due to you due to lack of my command over English. With my extremely limited knowledge and understanding I hope (Asha) that you (Asha) will understand why preaching to "change hearts" aka "convert" is not good and walking the path of self realization of God is best. ROHIT CHADDHA |
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 12:14:05 AM EDT
Dear Rohit,
I read with interest the exchanges between yourself and Asha. I will begin by saying up front I am in every way a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. The prize for which I run this race is stated in Ephesians 3:17-19 (NKJV): "that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height-- to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." I see many words between Asha and yourself. You said two things which stand out to me. 1) "You don't even know an iota about Hinduism. Hinduism is not religion. Hinduism and it's teachings cannot be translated into English." 2) "I haven't read Bible" Given those two facts, wouldn't any discussion between Asha and yourself be futile? Is it not like two people trying to dialogue when they speak entirely different languages? I am trying to understand the passion I am reading in your letters, and what you hope to accomplish in these letters. With love in Christ Jesus, Pat |
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 2:02:49 AM EDT
Thanks for reading our exchanges with interest... We were having a dialogue on the subject that one should not indulge in conversion of faith and for this topic one need not know religion but should study in detail what is the effect of such practice...
I would end with statement that God created this world and God has no beginning, middle or end... God is everywhere and whatever a person may do, he will always be answerable to God... God is beyond time, action and space and this visible world... Nothing in this world is permanent and everything in this world was invisible before birth and will become invisible after death and it is our duty to try to unite with God for the small period of time we are visible and are distracted continuously. As you try to understand the passion and what I hope to accomplish, I would like to take leave and go back to usual chores. |
|
said this on 06 Jun 2009 11:00:08 PM EDT
I’m glad you responded again, Rohit, so that we can continue our discussion in a friendly spirit for all to see. You sound like a reasonable man with a desire for fairness and compassion for all, including your Christian employees. Yet, as I will show you, your conclusions and beliefs about Christianity are unnecessary and unrealistic.
I would like to focus on the larger questions rather than go line by line (except in a few cases), which ends up being repetitious and loses sight of the fundamental issue. First thing I would like to do is get the historical debate out of the way. You referred to both Africa and India but especially India as examples where “warriors and religious torch bearers [were] going hand in hand” with all the chaos and disturbance in their wake. I read Arun Shourie’s extensive treatment of this subject in his book “Missionaries in India.” I was amazed that an author could so blatantly misrepresent the teaching of the Bible that he was supposedly refuting (I will elaborate on this later), as well as distort history with selective quotes. India Today’s review of that book made no effort to investigate the truth of his claims and simply supported Shourie’s unwarranted conclusions. But I am not going to go into the historical debate in detail here for one reason – it has already been done much more ably by Vishal Mangalwadi, who wrote a rebuttal to Shourie entitled, “Missionary Conspiracy: Letters to a Postmodern Hindu.” It is available in India, published by Nivedit Good Books Distributors, Mussoorie, UP. Mangalwadi does a very complete job of refuting the mistakes and inadequacies of Shourie’s book. While the historical outworking of Christian evangelism is a worthy and interesting subject, I think we will use our time better by addressing the more fundamental issue of why Christians evangelize (spread their faith). So rather than repeat all the contents of those two books here, I suggest that you read them on your own time. Before I move on from the historical subject completely, however, I would like to mention that I lived with my family in Africa for 21 years and my African friends would find your description of their beautiful continent highly offensive. African culture has much to offer the rest of the world and I refuse to call it “developing” or “third-world” as these terms imply measuring Africa by the materialistic values of other cultures. Christianity continues to grow faster in sub-Saharan Africa than anywhere else in the world, and this is being carried out largely by Africans themselves. This shows that Africans (just like so many other people-groups around the world) see Lord Jesus as their own and are following Him as African disciples. Let us get to the heart of the issue that upsets you. Why do Christians evangelize others? Why can they not remain content with their religion and let others do so as well? I will try to lay this out for you carefully, fairly, and respectfully. The word “evangelize” comes from the Greek, euangelion, which means “good news.” Same with the Old English term “gospel” – it too means “good news.” Although Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection on earth occurred a long time ago, its goodness never changes, and it is news to many who have never heard the name of Jesus, or whose “knowledge” is so inaccurate as to be of no use. It is good news to so many who are trapped in sin, ignorance, loneliness, and meaninglessness of life, and who don’t know how to get out of their problems and into the life of joy, peace, and victory that God intends for us. People who feel their need and are introduced to Jesus Christ are inevitably grateful and eagerly give their lives to Him as Lord and Savior. They do so because their previous religion, gods, philosophy – or lack of them – did not help. Thus, we who know and love Jesus Christ are motivated to share His message of hope with all we meet, knowing that some are already in that state of awareness of their own need and helplessness without His divine help. The difficulty is that we are ordinary humans who can’t tell which people we meet already have that felt need and which ones don’t yet have that felt need, until we start talking to them. Those who don’t have the felt need today may have it tomorrow or next year. Just this week I received this story from a Bengali young man: My name is Biman, I come from Hindu faith. From my childhood, I was a very competitive person and never believed in religion. Along with that, I had traits like anger, self-centeredness, perfectionism, and a zeal to become successful. I started taking money from my family to invest and become rich. I faced failure from every side and in my despair, I took to drug abuse. My condition started deteriorating. During that time, when I was in rehabilitation, and where I was told of very less hopes, I recalled what my Christian friends used to tell. They always told me that Jesus died for my sins, and if I accept him, he will not only forgive my sins but also give me a new life. That night I invited him in my life as my savior. Jesus healed me from my situation. Within some weeks I was recovered and then I started to read a Bible, and attend a local church. I could see my life getting shaped up. God helped me to come out of my personality problems. He helped me to depend on Him for every detail of my life. All glory to Him. Following Jesus Christ has always been about living a transformed life. It has nothing to do with “changing religion.” Rohit, I am sorry to tell you that you will simply not get your wish that Christians should keep silent and merely hold their own celebrations, hoping others will join them. We certainly do celebrate – every Sunday service is a celebration of the resurrection of Jesus on a Sunday – and certainly people do join us on their own initiative. But we cannot help but go and tell what wonderful things Lord Jesus has done in our lives (Acts 4:20). This is pure evangelism. For those like yourself who have no felt needs for a change in life, just politely say “No thanks.” Don’t deny others the chance to hear about Jesus’ life-transforming power by telling us we should never take the initiative with people who haven’t asked first. Rohit, evangelism goes farther than just meeting felt needs. We have to get to the deepest issue of all – truth. You said a few things about “truth” in your comments. At one point you said, “Truth for a person is what he believes in. The belief may be wrong but for the person the truth remains belief.” This appears to be equating belief and truth, as if they are the same and it doesn’t matter whether a belief is true or not. Later you said, “That does not mean that the true vanishes... Does it? If one believes that world is flat and sun revolves around it does it become true?” Here you sound concerned that a belief ought to be true, and claims should not be made that are not true. If I have understood your meanings correctly, I can agree with your second point but not your first. I have always admired the Sikhs’ greeting: Sat sri akal, Truth is eternal. It does not change with time or place. It matters what we believe. We should not believe and practice what is not true and does not conform to reality – that is a dishonor to our Creator God who is Ultimate Reality. Every Hindu should agree with that, as the prayer says, “O God, from the unreal lead me to the real, from darkness lead me to the light, from death lead me to immortality.” That wonderful prayer implies that we humans are in a state of untruth, deception, ignorance, sin, death, helplessness – and we need God’s help to get out of it. Therefore ultimate truth comes from God and must be revealed by Him to us. Belief does not create truth. All truth-claims should be compared with reality, tested and found either supportable or unsupportable. God is the Creator, all-powerful, all-good, all-knowing. Man is the created thing and therefore limited and also sinful, as you readily agreed. Therefore what we come up with through “educated guesses,” philosophy, and even scientific research is not always accurate. That is why we need a revelation from God. That is what we have in the Bible, and in the person of Jesus Christ. Immediately the next question is how I can support that claim that the Bible and Christ are the revelation of God and not some other book or person or god. That is a subject too vast for me to answer here. In fact, Christian authors for centuries have written books upon books showing why there is a reasonable basis to make those claims. Please read any of these you choose – today’s most popular books on that subject are by Lee Stroebel, a former atheist and reporter, who became a believer and wrote “The Case for Christ” and “The Case for Faith.” Josh McDowell and Hugh Ross are also well-known current authors on these subjects. Only on the basis of truth can we have hope of salvation, hope of relationship with God who is Himself perfect truth. Rohit, it is not only the Christians who are claiming that Jesus is the truth. It is not the invention of His followers. Jesus Himself claimed that, most famously in the verse I quoted last time, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). This brings us to another central reason why Christians cannot stop evangelizing – Our Lord commands it. The commands in the Bible to tell the good news to everyone stem from this issue of truth. If Jesus is true, if He is the “true God and eternal life” (1 John 5:20), then all people need to know it in order to be rightly related to their Creator. If Jesus is “the Savior of all mankind” (1 Timothy 4:10), and the problem of sin is universal, then Jesus is the universal solution. I can say that confidently because no other religion offers a “savior” – and yes, I have deliberately studied the religions of the world. On this issue of commands to evangelize, Arun Shourie was most deceptive. In his book, he referred to the command found in Mark 16:15, “Go and preach the gospel to all creation” as if it were the only place in the whole Bible where preaching the gospel is commanded. Shourie points out, quite accurately, that Mark 16:9-20 is not found in the earliest manuscripts of the New Testament and was probably a later addition after that section of Mark was inexplicably lost. Shourie concludes that therefore, there is no basis for Christians to evangelize. He fails to point out that there are many such commands to spread the good news of Jesus throughout the New Testament. It does not rest on that one verse alone! Not only that, but the message of God reconciling the world to Himself through Jesus Christ is woven throughout the entire Bible right from the earliest pages of Genesis and cannot be extracted. See for example, Matthew 28:18-20, Acts 1:8, 2 Corinthians 5:17-20, Mark 5:19, Genesis 3:15, Gen. 12:1-3, etc. etc.). In summary, it is inevitable that followers of Christ will continue to share the good news with others; no one has convinced us to stop after 2,000 years. We should do it respectfully and intelligently, but this has not always been the case – which is why I wrote my original article, to urge Christians to improve their evangelism methods. And while they do need improving, there is emphatically nothing in our message that includes fooling illiterate people. It is not Christians who treat the illiterate as if they are unintelligent by implying they are not capable of hearing a message or experiencing something and determining whether it is true or good for them. I have tried in both my responses to you, to show on two bases the legitimacy and value of the good news of Jesus Christ. (1) In story form, the living Lord Jesus transforms lives. He has power and love that people can actually experience. This makes them want to follow Him as God. (2) By rational reasoning, we need truth outside of our own opinions, truth that comes by revelation from God. The truths that make Jesus “good news” are: 1) God created us and loves us and wants us to have relationship with Him. 2) We are all sinners, which causes a broken relationship with God and causes us to experience evil and pain. 3) Jesus Christ is the embodiment of God’s love and forgiveness. 4) Through personal faith in Jesus Christ, we can all experience restoration of our relationship with God, which is called “salvation.” 5) This salvation is experienced immediately, in this life, and results in life-transforming power. While followers of Christ do not become perfect in this world, they do experience positive change which comes from worshiping a living God and savior. That is a very brief summary of the “Gospel.” Please notice that the message is universal for all humans – all are born sinners, all need the same solution which God Himself supplied – and has nothing to do with religion or culture one is born into. Since it is virtually impossible to delineate between religion and culture, there is no need to claim any particular religion or culture is better or worse than another. We should criticize and address untruth and sin wherever they occur, whether they are committed by our own people or anyone else. And we should affirm what is true and good (by comparing it with God’s standard) wherever it occurs. I will stop here, though I could say much more in reply to your many other comments (like where pornography comes from – supply and demand, like any other industry!). As I said at the beginning, I was trying to major on the big issues rather than comment line by line. If I have not answered any certain point that you consider very important, please ask it again. And don’t worry, I am not concerned about your English – you speak English better than I speak any of the other languages I have tried to learn! |
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 1:47:52 AM EDT
I do not know why Arun Shourie was brought in... I assume that you are assuming that I read his articles but I do not.... My views are formed on my study of events in history... The crux of my message is something else... Some things are better answered by time whose pace is great... Had an enjoyable time reading your comments and thanks for the same.
|
|
said this on 07 Jun 2009 10:00:46 PM EDT
It is unfortunate that this misunderstanding is taking place. Cathy is a very nice person. Sometimes I think why should a lady from such a great nation have a heart for a nation where most people really wont appreciate her.
I wouldnt really spend much time to convince people who misunderstand and will never want to be receptive. Bro Rohit, If your questions are informative and i guess they can be answered, but if they are debative and rebellious then, we are wrong, you are right. lets end it here. God Bless you. Jesus Loves you too. Bro you want to meet me, im in Boston. |
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 1:29:46 AM EDT
I never said or implied anywhere that Cathy is not good person... I do not know why you had to state that... But anyways... People of "Great Nation", Please do not have heart for any "Other Nation"... "Other Nation" has existed since time immortality and shall continue to exist.
I am not rebellious or debative... I wanted to convey my thoughts to you folks about what has been the outcome of some deeds... Since we are not cutting across each other, let's abandon dialogue... Time shall tell at it's own pace for it's pace is mysterious. |
|
said this on 15 Jun 2009 11:59:44 AM EDT
Rohit bhai
sorry didnt mean to call you debative or rebellious. Its just that it didnt make sense asking cathy or her nation to pay for what England did to India. It wasnt the christians who did it but the British. Not all British are followers of Christ and not all Christians are British. thats why i suggested asha/cathy to quit. ill let the dialogue continue... |
|
said this on 07 Jun 2009 11:34:09 PM EDT
This is a great discussion.
Christian preachers continue to preach their message on the TV and radio, even Islamic, Buddhist and Hindu missionaries continue to share their religion in USA. Recently Sri Sri Ravi Shankar did a cleansing ceremony in a city in Texas with thousand in attendance, he preaches his messages all over the world. Every one has the right to share their faith. Take what is good leave what is not good. Conversion is a matter of heart and faith. To tell the convert was converted because of an allurement is rude. Mr. Rohit can switch off and not hear or read the message. I do not see why he wants to stop you form saying what your feel compelled. On our great Indian flag are the eternal words. Satamev Jayate. Truth will win. Who is Rohit to tell how the demographics of a place should look. Let us fight for people to be free and have a choice to choose happiness in their life. If Christianity or Hinduism or Islam or Jainism or Buddhism. Why not leave it to an individual to decide. People knock our door for us to choose their political candidate, buy their brand, donate to their cause..... If I don't want them to come I can post a do not solicit sign on my door. I have no right to stop them from knocking other doors. Kathy keep doing what you feel compelled to do. I disagree with Rohit. I have a Hindu background and know Hinduism is a great religion. I feel it is my responsibility to test the claims of each religion and see what is good and bad. |
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 1:16:29 AM EDT
Convert was converted due to allurement is rude but that is what is true. Keep supporting and doing "Conversions" and as you could not spell Satyamev Jayate, Truth Prevails. Dialogues do not solve every problem... Like none of you could answer questions that I had in honesty... And no one will ever be able to as for you folks, truth is matter of convenience... If Cathy would have said "As per our Book" it is our righteous duty to convert others by any means, then I would have greatly lauded her honesty that violence, money, deception are ok to convert.
I "admire" your thought that people should sell Religion by knocking on doors... It is a great idea... Do add in that in case door to door canvassing does not work then violence and money should also be used. And lastly, hats off to you on the last para... |
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 11:47:50 AM EDT
People being converted by unethical means such as allurement or deception is FALSE as far as “our book” the Bible is concerned. Since you have admittedly not read the Bible, let me list for you the relevant statements:
Jesus instructing his disciples on sending them out to preach and heal: “Freely you have received, freely give…. I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as serpents and as innocent as doves” Matthew 10:10. Apostle Paul, describing his missionary methods: “We proclaim [Christ], admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom….” Colossians 1:28. “…Our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake…. For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you. On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts. You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed – God is our witness. We were not looking for praise from men, not from you or anyone else…. We were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children. We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well….” 1 Thessalonians 1:5, 2:1-16. “We put no stumbling block in anyone’s path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; … in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in sincere love; in truthful speech and in the power of God; … through bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; … having nothing, and yet possessing everything” 2 Corinthians 5:3-10. Jesus: “Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise you Father in heaven” Matthew 5:16. “I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven” Matthew 6:44-45. These are the words of our God and Master Jesus Christ, and the example of the Apostles. We have no other standard, this is our authority. Anything that does not live up to that standard is simply not Christian and not Biblical. There has been no case of a Christian being convicted in an Indian court of conversion by fraud or allurement. I have been a missionary for 30 years and have never ever read or heard of any official encouragement by any mission agency or church even hinting at supporting unethical means of evangelism. We do fall short of the perfection of our Master, to be sure. But Christians are among the most self-critical religious group in the world as far as I can tell. We clean our own house. Our Book commands it. I have personally heard even pastors and Christian leaders being insensitive in their speech toward non-Christians, and I speak up when I that happens. That is why I write and teach Christians on the subject of evangelism – because we do need to improve. But the notion that conversion occurs in India (let alone the rest of the world) largely by fraud is FALSE. |
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 7:29:56 PM EDT
I find it humorous... Sending sheep to wolves... Any creation not falling under ambit of son of God is in carnivorous animal category... What was the world before this some 2000 odd year old teaching came through... Was it running in a wrong way... We put no stumbling block in anyone's path... Ain't it contrary to what you do? Why do you think that anyone not in ambit of son of God is enemy? Because you will be creating enemies as you act? Indian courts and system of governance is stupid... No one in India expects fair and free trial right from the beat constable to chief justice in Supreme Court... Going through Indian Judiciary system is a torture that the thought of it will kill most of the creation of God. That's why it is popular that if there is any place on earth where God still rules, it is in India.
|
|
said this on 09 Jun 2009 10:25:50 AM EDT
Rohit, before you find humor or things to criticize maybe you should read the Bible and understand its meaning and context. Long back a Muslim university student challenged me, “I have read both the Bible and the Quran, and I have chosen Islam. How can you reject our religion without reading our book?” I accepted that challenge and read the Quran, and the Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana, Adi Granth, and Vivekananda and Gandhi and Shourie and Dawkins (atheist)…. I never found anyone like Lord Jesus or anything comparable to the Bible. Rohit, be intellectually honest: you have not rejected Christianity, you have remained willfully ignorant of it.
Jesus’ words, “I send you (his disciples) as sheep among wolves” were spoken to Jews in the Jewish context, as Jesus was sending them to heal and preach to Jews – their own people, same language, culture, history. Not as “people under the ambit of Son of God” to people outside such ambit. The Jewish people had been prepared for centuries to receive their Messiah (saviour) by the prophets God had sent. Here was Lord Jesus presenting Himself as that Messiah and sending His disciples out to spread the news to those who should have welcomed Him gladly. Furthermore, Lord Jesus is not merely a Jewish messiah with nothing for the rest of the world. Later He sent His disciples to the whole world with the same message. Listen to the words of Jesus in John 17:2-3, where He speaks as Son to Father: “For you [God] granted him [Jesus the Son] authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” The Bible’s clear teaching is that all people are created by God and loved by Him, all have sinned and become separated from Him, and all are offered eternal life through God’s ONE solution for man’s sin, Jesus Christ. All – including you, Rohit – are under the “ambit” – or authority – of Jesus the Son of God. He calls all to faith and obedience. You have that choice too, Rohit. He is offering you eternal life in exchange for giving up your pride and self-sufficiency. “Sheep among wolves” simply warned the disciples that all will not receive them gladly, though they offer good news. This is a truism through all centuries and cultures to one extent or other, wherever disciples of Jesus Christ have gone. Which side of the fence are you putting yourself on by your response to the good news of Jesus? Only few would actually do harm to the disciples in their rejection; others will simply ignore it or dislike it without taking action. When good meets evil, and evil reacts against it, that is evil which has identified itself as an enemy. (I am using good and evil here as hyperbole, not characterizing Christians and non-Christians that way). Did you read further in my quotations, Rohit? What does Lord Jesus command us to do to our enemies? – Love them! Whether friend or enemy, we are to treat all people with love. Love here is defined as seeking the good of another ahead of your own. In that sense I am showing love to you, by explaining the message you need to hear though you do not like it. There are other things I could be doing with my time. Your closing lines – now that I find humorous! |
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 10:23:20 PM EDT
I appreciate your comments and attitude, Babasaheb. Despite my rebuttals to Rohit where I feel he is off base, I too respect Hinduism as a great religion. The philosophers have wrestled with all the age-old paradoxes of human experience. the rishis have shown what self-abasement and anti-materialism is, some of the prayers I have come across are beautiful, and there is much the Indian culture has to offer the world in terms of true human values. The only shortfall is that these human efforts to find answers will always fall short of ultimate truth, which must be revealed by God Himself (as I have elaborated on elsewhere). Lord Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all that is good and true in Hindu thought. There are plenty of aspects of Indian culture I prefer to American, and if I had the chance, I would pick up and move there!
|
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 2:29:16 AM EDT
Babasaheb, I agree with what you say. As long as no one is being forced or oppressed to adhere to a belief they don't agree with, all people should have the freedom to share ideas and make their own decisions. God Himself has given every person that option. It is your right to ask them not to knock on your door, but not your business if they knock on someone elses. I am very annoyed by phone salesmen. I politely (but firmly) ask that my number be removed from their list. What I don't do is try to stop them from calling more people. If a product is good, it will sell whether I am phoned or not, and if it is bad, no number of phone calls will sell it. God is good. He is, and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
|
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 9:00:05 AM EDT
Asha, Rohit, Shankar and Babasaheb,
Great comments and response! To me it is again a learning experience, how different people think and react. I'm an LLL = Life Long Learner! I am Indian and a disciple of The Lord Jesus Christ! Though I was born in a "Christian" family, I did not know the Lord Jesus Christ, but knew about Him. Reading or hearing about Rohit and meeting you in person, introducing and knowing you more as a friend is an entirely different matter. I wish we could talk face to face Rohit. In my 19th year, I met the Lord in a simple manner without anyone preaching to me directly. But I think, I heard the Good News of forgiveness of my sins, removal of fears and guilt here and there, which led me to make the choice. I was terrified of darkness, feared ghosts, lacked confidence, with poor self-esteem and suicidal. Meeting the Lord Jesus, my Chief Guru, was the most remarkable incident in my life, unleashing me on to the exciting adventurous journey, that I'm still traveling even after 34 years ! No one forced me, but it was a choice I made and am totally contented and will never give up for anything...even an American or British citizenship! Rohit, I'm quoting from your comment: "In Hinduism everything is creation of God who is supreme... Has no Beginning, no Middle and no End..." I believe this is the truth, because this is exactly what the Bible (means book in Greek) says. Let me quote two verses from the Bible. Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 22:13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters in the Greek alphabets. Like saying A to Z. It means exactly what you quoted. I came to know this Loving-Eternal God who incarnated Himself in the Lord Christ Jesus. He is alive, real and with me!!! To me it was like meeting the greatest Doctor in the world. And when I meet people who have similar or more problems like me, I confidently and boldly share about what the Great Physician, the Lord Jesus can do for them. It is simply prescribing a medicine, it is up to the "patience" to take it or no. It they are willing to listen, I share. No matter to which religion or no religion one belongs, including Christianity, the human heart is "wicked above all things." Following the Lord Jesus can and will transform lives towards forgiveness, love, contentment, joy, peace and much more. We make Him known to those who are willing to listen, it is up to them to chose. If you are still offended by the statements you read about your gods, I'm sorry for that. Would love to hear more from you Rohit. Blessings on you Daniel Grimmer I like what Babasaheb said. He too is a Hindu like you Rohit. His comments: I quote here: "People knock our door for us to choose their political candidate, buy their brand, donate to their cause..... If I don't want them to come I can post a do not solicit sign on my door. I have no right to stop them from knocking other doors." There is freedom of expression. Hinduism like Christian faith, grants freedom of expression and choice. That is the noblest of all religions. Providing an alternative choice to those who are struggling in life despite whatever religion they belong to. Rohit, just as you have the right to believe what you want to. You said, leave people to believe what they think is t is not "truth", |
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 5:06:13 PM EDT
Everybody goes through what you went through... Fear, lack of confidence, imagining, thinking and believing everything that will happen will be bad, nightmares, suicidal tendencies etc... Even I have gone through the stages and everyone I know has gone through the same stage. What is big deal in that? When time is bad everyone thinks on the same lines and some go a step further and actually commit suicide... This is something that is going on since ages. From the time when only existing faiths of the world were Judaism and Hinduism and will go on for time to come... How so ever and how so many enlightened persons come, this will go on.
I do not think that the statement you made Alpha... Omega etc is the same as No Beginning... End... You may spend some time pouring thought over it. There is nothing such as everlasting love, forgiveness, contentment, joy, peace and much more. The world we live in is constantly changing... Nothing lasts for ever and so will not last love... and much more. Peace and trouble will always be there in phases. God is no one's personal property that only chosen one can make God listen, see, act and behave in a particular manner. If someone believes that it is true then the Chosen One is God and God is not God and in end it becomes a bit confusing as to whether God is supreme or chosen one is supreme. I am not offended by statements about my God (with option of s if you like and understand that way)... As I said before that you folks do not have an iota of knowledge about Hinduism... Shri Krishna or Shri Ram whom you people love to denounce on every opportunity are not Gods but leaders of their respective ages... Sat Yug and Dwapar Yug... Since they were humans, they were bound to err because it is science (Science = Truth) that in this world no person can be perfect and also, every person has to die only once... Some people think otherwise and my hats off to those persons. I do not know about heart becoming wicked but I know that all people are created by God and some people act in a wicked way due to thinking. What follows is also science and you may challenge it and spend lifetime proving otherwise... In life, in ascending order of importance/ ranking, senses are lowest followed by mind, wisdom, common sense and soul. When senses get rooted in a subject, it creates self hypnotization and when there is a disturbance, it creates anger in self hypnotized person, which in turn destroys common sense and leads to downfall of a person... People who offend others fall into which category, I hope you will now know. Babasaheb is a learned and wise person who is still experimenting with truth and lies... My best wishes are with him. Hinduism does not mention about any religion any where so there comes no question of Hinduism denying or allowing x or y or z. All it says is Dharma Protects Those who Protect Dharma. I did not get your last sentence... It seems to be incomplete or maybe I am reading it wrong... What I am trying to convey is that one must leave a person who has certain sets of belief in peace as long as peace is not disturbed. For, truth for a person remains what he believes in although the belief is not always true. Disturbing peace and tranquility is not good and I hope this is not difficult to understand. With kind regards as due to you. |
|
said this on 09 Jun 2009 10:16:38 AM EDT
Though it is actually Daniel who should reply your comments, I will also do so.
Rohit, though I respect you as an intelligent man and staunchly defending your beliefs, here you almost bring me to pity (I know you will not like that and that is your privilege). Hindus get so frantic at their people “leaving the fold” and yet what do you have to offer? “There is nothing such as everlasting love, forgiveness, contentment, joy, peace and much more.” If all you can offer a person in deep trouble of sin or misfortune is analysis of why they fell into problems, with no solution beyond your own good advice, why do you think they flock to Jesus Christ? Your “gods” are not gods after all according to you. You have no book you feel offers universal truth such that all people should read it (from your earlier comments). Jesus Christ is God in human flesh and lived a perfect sinless life, qualifying Him to be our Sanatan Satguru. The Bible is the revelation of eternal omniscient God. Lord Jesus does offer eternal love, hope, joy, peace, and forgiveness. Lord Jesus does have the power to answer prayer and transform sinners. His teachings are not mere opinions and good advice but are the eternal principles of God Himself, creator of the universe and the laws by which things work. Living by those principles as commands, we can live a joyful meaningful life to the maximum possible in a world which is tainted by sin. These are not empty words, philosophical musings, or promises of a book written by man. How can we be sure they are true and Lord Jesus can fulfill such promises for eternal life? Because of His resurrection. Lord Jesus said these words in John 11:25-26: “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.” On the spot Lord Jesus proceeded to raise a dead man back to life, who had been in a tomb for four days. Just a few days later, Jesus Himself was killed and came back to life in the same body third day after being put in a tomb sealed with a stone. That person who can raise Himself from death is the true God and His promises are worth trusting. And millions of people continue to take Him at His word and experience the “abundant life” that He promises. For those who have tasted, there is no going back…. For those interested in further study on the historical proofs of the resurrection of Lord Jesus, see “More Than a Carpenter” by Josh McDowell. |
|
said this on 08 Jun 2009 3:18:47 PM EDT
Good discussion! Although, it keeps jumping from topic to topic, I guess the basic issue is "whether a person should witness about his/her own faith OR not".
My name is Balaji. I boast of two things. First, is my Lord Jesus Christ, whom I dearly love, because he loved me before I knew him. He found me, when I searched for him. Second, is my mother-land India, which I hold close to my heart, for India did suffer greatly at the hands of foreign oppressors over centuries, yet this nation continues to thrive embracing everything that came its way, blending it into a uniquely rich culture that is both tolerant and spiritual. I found truth in Jesus, because I did not judge Him by His followers. I made a sincere effort to understand Him and know him for what He is, what He said and did; not by what people did or continue doing in His name. It is totally fair for any Indian (Hindu or otherwise), to be offended when you tell them that their faith/religion needs a repair or replacement. For me personally, it has been a gradual journey from the Hindu faith, that finally ended in embrace of Jesus. When I found Him, I stopped worrying about other faiths, religions or rituals, simply because I did not need them anymore. So, whenever I get a chance, I do feel very excited to bear "witness" about what Jesus did for me. But, the keyword here is "witness". We are not here to argue, debate, advocate and definitely not to judge. We often recommend to our friends a good restaurant to eat in or a great stock to invest in based on our personal experience. So, it is also fair if one feels compelled to share about a "life-changing" experience, such as knowing Jesus. I sincerely hope and pray that it offends know one as long as we stick to "witnessing" and not take it further unless the listener is receptive. And finally, there is one beautiful thing about witnessing; you just say the truth about your personal experience... who would have a problem with that? (and the man who had been blind replied)..... "One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!" - John 9:25 |
|
said this on 09 Jun 2009 1:35:04 AM EDT
Rohit said: "... Truth for a person is what he believes in. The belief may be wrong but for the person the truth remains belief. One should not try to invade into belief of others. If you are happy, then celebrate interested people will join your celebration."
The whole discussion, i think, rests on one point why Christians go out and spread Christianity. Bro. Rohit has a point BUT he is contradicting himself when oppose Christian ways. According to his own saying (supported by hindu philosophy) that truth for a person is what he believes in. Now for Rohit, truth is to sit in his own home and practice his own religion/faith. For Christian, truth is to go out into the world and tell all people about Jesus Christ. As per Rohit everyone has right to believe and follow what they believe as truth. One should not try to invade into belief of others. My humble question is why Christians are excluded from this right by Rohit and others like him? The basic problem with Hindu fanatics and political parties involved in religion for vested interests, is that Hinduism is all inclusive by nature especially when it comes to theology -all path leads to one God. While Christianity and Islam have exclusive stand about God/Allah. Thus a Hindu cannot reject Jesus/Allah as God while Christians and Muslims can reject Hindu Gods. I hope Rohit will understand this simple truth. 1. Christianity can say Jesus is only God without disturbing Hinduism because speading of good news is practicing belief -one's truth. 2. Hindus following real Hinduism cannot get disturbed by such practice because they can easily understand importance of practice of truth and freedom. Now coming to point of conversion. We all who beleive in science and benefit from its inventions, know that scientific truth changes!!! Many times it changes so much that science enters into new era. Newtonian physics changed when Einstien presented relativity of time. Currently Quantum physics is bending laws of physics. The point is what a person believes does not necesssaily be truth. A person needs to be educated/informed/told about the real truth which is independent of a personal belief. It is completely wrong when you choose to allow ignorance of a person (because his belief is truth for him) when you had a chance to educate him -broaden horizon of his thinking. This exactly is good news of Jesus Christ. A person is told/informed about this good news which is either accepted or rejected. It is a matter of personal choice. Hinduism/Buddhism/Islam and all other religions and faith need to take an absolute stand when it comes to theology otherwise they have no truth. Christians and Muslims take this stand and profess their faith but Hinduism cannot do that. It is against its core beliefs and teachings to be exclusive in nature. This is reason why Hindus are objecting spreading of religion and conversion and not challenging on the basis of theology. They accuse bribing and other methods for conversion but they ignore the fact that such activities cannot bring the conversion of this scale -the very scale they proclaim!!! Saying all these, I can conclude that this debate over religion is never ending but once you know how every gear moves, you can fairly understand mechanics of religions. Then you can make a conscious decision about the truth. This time it can be independent and absolute truth whether you believe it or not!!! |
|
said this on 09 Jun 2009 10:37:24 AM EDT
I appreciate your comments, Akbar. I would like to clarify one point. You said: "Hinduism is all inclusive by nature especially when it comes to theology -all path leads to one God. While Christianity and Islam have exclusive stand about God/Allah." That is a common phrase, that Christianity and Islam are exclusive religions and Hinduism is inclusive. I understand the point that is being conveyed that truth is exclusive in the sense that it creates a division between what is true and not true. A thing cannot be true and not true at the same time. However, it is not helpful to use the term "exclusive" about Christianity or Jesus Christ, as it conveys the unintended sense that Christians wilfully keep some people out of salvation by virtue of not being born Christians or converting to their religion. That is not at all what the Bible is trying to communicate. As per my comments above, all human beings are "under the ambit (authority)" of Lord Jesus who is the creator and God. All have sinned in rebellion against God, and all need the solution of faith in Lord Jesus' sacrifice for sins in order to be forgiven and receive salvation. Lord Jesus does not exclude anyone, but extends this offer of grace to all people equally, with no regard to external factors such as language, tribe, or community of any type. The question is who accepts the offer?
|
|
said this on 10 Jun 2009 6:57:26 AM EDT
Cathy, ignorant people get swayed easily... Ignorance cannot be removed unless ignorant wants to become aware... A person who is getting what he immediately needs will do whatever is told to him... For example a malnourished person in despair will do what ever is told to him... A person threatened with death will do whatever he is told to if he wants to live.
Come what ever may but there are certain truths which cannot be changed what so ever belief a person might be having 1) Nothing on earth is permanent 2) Happiness, peace, calm, good is also not permanent and so is grief, sadness, bad times 3) All things on earth have a finite life... For example Rohit has a finite life... Rohit was not present before birth and will disappear after death 4) God has created the entire world god is supreme... Therefore, every person can realize god as long as the person wants to realize god Now to many persons who have repeatedly questioned belief & truth. Truth for a person remains what he believes in but the belief may not be true. For example someone believes that so and so is anointed person and God will listen to those who come through that person becomes truth for that person. One modern example of such "Godly Person" is Rajneesh Chandra Mohan Jain popularly known as Osho. He had followers, mostly rich persons and owned 93 rolls royce. Now his followers do not believe that this guy died and believe that he is God or next to god or whatever. Does it mean that I should study what he had to say or will anyone else study what he had to say before knowing truth? The only person that will study his teachings is someone who wants to because that person believes that what he knows from his or her dharma may not be true. In other words the person who tries to study other person's dharma is a person who doubts his or her own dharma and is looking for truth. One old example is earth is center of universe, sun revolves around it and that it is still... I am stating this because someone believed in this statement and this belief caused lot of violence towards believers and grief to torch bearers of belief... Ultimately revolving term prevailed... But even today there are believers who believe that Earth is center of Universe. The entire conversation that took place has increased my knowledge about Christianity and that is 1) It is not clear who is God... Jesus is God or Messenger of God... Sometimes people convey he is God... Sometimes that he is son of God... Sometimes that Jesus controls God... The whole concept is confusing 2) All earthly beings are sinners and continuously commit sins 3) A term has been lifted right out of Sanskrit Sanatan Sadguru... But it is ok to fool people. 4) Learned goes and distributes truth and not seeker goes to learned to learn truth 5) Conversion is ok as long as it is not other way round... For example conversion to Islam is good but conversion from Islam is not good as long as Islamic is on receiving end and so goes for Christianity. So one must always poke nose and see whether the same is happening or not... To prevent the same one must at least once in a week sniff around. 6) In this world everything is eternal if one believes in Jesus otherwise everything is temporary... But somehow this does not apply to life 7) All persons other than those who are in ambit of Jesus are eternally unhappy, ignorant, idiots and useless 8) God is different and numerous... Jews God is different, Muslim God is different, Hindu God is different... In fact there are multiple different Gods in Hinduism... There are so many gods that each individual has one god so there is one unique god for each one 9) It is ok to continuously commit sins because Jesus will provide salvation and wash all sins and direct God accordingly |
|
said this on 10 Jun 2009 7:36:43 PM EDT
Rohit,
I can't agree with your description of Chritian faith and its core beliefs. Also, your listing of "certain truths" (which cannot be changed what so ever belief a person might be having) is not completely in line with what Christians believe either. But, it doesn't really matter now; does it? You wrote your opinion about Christianity, based on what you gathered from discussions, conversations, reading or research. With all due respect; I don't agree, because I am a witness to the Truth that was revelaed to me. I am living it and experiencing it everyday. I know for sure, what I have is not what you described. So, now we can politely agree to "disagree" on our opinions about Christianity, and move on. Having said that, would you still have a problem if I shared my personal experience with someone?.....as long as I sincerely believe that they will benefit from it? I feel that I was given a great gift, which now must be shared and passed on. To accomplish that, I am willing to approach people without shame; face embarrassment, insults and be pushed away..... it all worth it. Besides, isn't it a basic constitutional right in any civilized society, that you are allowed to promote your faith? God bless you, |
|
said this on 11 Jun 2009 12:12:43 AM EDT
Rohit, it is not surprising that you are still unclear on many of the Bible’s teachings. I have not been giving you a systematic theology (study of God) course. I have been answering your questions and objections, therefore, your new “knowledge of Christianity” is somewhat of a patchwork. You are not what I would consider a true seeker, one who genuinely wants to learn about Christ to meet a felt need – not sure what your real motive is here in prolonging this discussion, actually! But lots of people are listening in and even joining in on our discussion, so 10% for your sake and 90% for the sake of our worldwide audience, I continue to respond to the points you raise.
I have asked a few friends to respond to your remarks about ignorant and desperate people. Let’s give them a couple days and see what they say or else I will go ahead myself…. When we evangelists meet a genuine seeker, we take time and not only answer immediate questions but also teach slowly and patiently what a person needs to know and understand in order to be a disciple of Lord Jesus. Some people are ready quickly, others take a year or more. Listen to this response a friend of mine gave to a true seeker who visited one of our websites: Seeker:, i am a brahmin and i would like to change my religion bcause my enner voice telling me i believe in jesus, i would like to become a christchen. Responder (also a Brahmin follower of Christ): “…Will it surprise if I tell you that Christianity is not a religion. It’s a walk with the Jesus Christ.… What do you know about Jesus Christ? Do you know him as your Saviour and the Lord? Do you know you are a sinner and he died for your sins? Do you know that He alone is the God. Do you know that world will hate you on your conversion to Christ? If your parents say choose one either us or Jesus, what are you going to choose?... Ask these questions to yourself. I do not want to mislead you just to gain you as a Convert. Lord doesn’t want outer things, he wants the sacrifice of heart.” This response of the Christian is absolutely correct and is normal for what a disciple of Christ should tell a seeker. We are not all out to “change religions” or “make converts.” We are aiming to help seekers become disciples of Jesus Christ. Rohit, you are still confusing the terms “belief” and “truth” and are using them inconsistently yourself, but we have been over that already and I will not belabor the point. Perhaps I can just refer you to an English dictionary. You have made four truth-claims, which are your beliefs, but you have no external basis with which to prove them, as we do. Our claim that Jesus Christ is God on earth and that the Bible is the inerrant revelation of God are reasonable based on the external, historical proofs available to us about, for example, Jesus’ resurrection, which I already mentioned. When a God lives a perfect sinless life on earth and raises himself from death, I believe that He is almighty and worthy of worship and worthy of believing what He says is true. You don’t have to take my belief as proof when there are external historical proofs. On what basis should I believe your claim that life is finite and I will disappear as a person after death of my body? Since Jesus raised people and himself back to life after they had died, that is proof that the person (soul) does not cease to exist after death of the body. Yours is nothing more than a claim without possibility of proof, since if it is true, nobody could come back from the dead to tell us that there is no existence after death! Moreover, it is a hopeless kind of belief which European philosophers took to its logical extreme in works such as Nausea by Jena-Paul Sartre. For more on this subject, please read Ravi Zacharias’ “Can Man Live without God?” Your fourth truth-claim says, “God has created the entire world god is supreme... Therefore, every person can realize god as long as the person wants to realize god.” Your two statements are non-sequiturs – meaning they do not follow, the second is not proved by the first. The Bible teaches that God is the supreme creator and is distinct from his creation (the universe and man). We can know God as we know another human being. I can know you but you and I remain distinct from each other. Knowing another person gives joy, love, and purpose to life; to know God (as a distinct other being) produces SUPREME joy, love, and purpose in our lives. There is nothing like realizing god within myself – I am not the creator. This is a good time to clarify who Jesus Christ is, in answer to your point #1 in what you have “learned” about Christianity. To say Jesus is God and the Son of God is virtually synonymous. The term “son of” in the Bible and in many colloquial languages is a figure of speech to mean that something is closely identified with another thing, that it proceeds from something, or has the same characteristics as another thing. Our friends the Muslims usually get this point wrong as well. The Bible does not imply a physical relationship with a woman or goddess to produce an offspring – that is as offensive to Christians as it is to Muslims! The term “Son of God” as it is used in the Bible does not imply superior-inferior relationship. God the “Father,” Son and Holy Spirit are said to be three persons of the Godhead, equal in attributes but sometimes differing in role or activity. So we say it was God the Son who came to earth as the person Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit, who is never given a separate personal name in the Bible, is the third person of the Godhead. So to say Lord Jesus is God and Lord Jesus is the Son of God is virtually identical in meaning. Jesus said to one of his disciples, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). John 5:18 says, “[Jesus] was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.” When Jesus said, “I and the Father are one,” the disbelieving Jews picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy. They said, “We are not stoning you for any of these [miracles],… but because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:30-33). Continuing in response to your points… 2) Yes all are sinners but by the grace of God we do not continuously sin, we do sometimes do good and we experience good things God has put on the earth, so life is not continuous misery for all. 3) I used the term “Sanatan Satguru” because I have known many Hindu followers of Christ who consider Lord Jesus that way. Obviously my experience of Hindu thought is that of one who has studied from outside but not born and raised in it and I do not pretend otherwise. I highly respect much of Hindu thought, where it is true it is to be appreciated and valued and built upon with the revelation that God has given. All cultures need to be scrutinized by the truth of God’s revelation and what is good should be kept and what is false should fade in the light of the glory of Christ. 4) Seekers go about looking for truth and those who have already found Christ go about looking for those who need to hear it – but all of us are learners all our lives, we all need to be taught and disciplined by our Lord until our lives are over. 5) To repeat, we are not interested in promoting a religion, but in seeking truth ourselves and helping those who need it. All falsehood should go from every culture and religion. All should seek to know the true Creator God and obey his truth, whatever the cost. I had to give up my sins to be saved, so will you! 6) God, His Word, human souls are eternal, though humans had a beginning when they were created by God. “The world and its desires pass away, but the one who does the will of God lives forever” (1 John 2:17). “It is appointed for a man to die once and after that to face judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). Even those who do not accept God’s truth face His eternal judgment and continue in consciousness apart from His presence. 7) What you wrote is not taken from my words, because I stressed that ALL persons ARE under the ambit of Lord Jesus. And I never described unbelievers in the terms you used. If you never feel your need for Christ, truth, and salvation before Judgment day, you will wish you had – and that is not a threat, it is spoken with love and longing for your salvation. 8) What you wrote again is not based on anything I said. I have stressed there is One God, one creator of all. Religions are human creations, just like political parties or unions or systems of government. They serve useful purposes but as human institutions all are flawed, Christianity included. No one, including Christians, is saved by virtue of human birth. We all need that encounter of felt-need and truth-seeking combined with God who seeks us in His love. 9) It is NOT okay to commit sins. The only way to receive salvation as a gift from God is through repentance from sins. Receiving God’s gift of salvation results in a transformed life, as in my earlier examples of men addicted to pornography who have given it up and in their joyful freedom, live to serve the pure God Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus gave clear warnings to those who would try to pretend: “Many will say to me in that [Judgment] Day, ‘Lord! Lord!’… Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” (Matthew 7:21-23). In Matthew 18:21-35 Lord Jesus told a lengthy story to illustrate the very principle that one who accepts forgiveness but goes out and lives an evil life is proving that he is never saved to begin with, because the mark of salvation is a transformed life. Once again, Rohit, I urge you to read at least the New Testament with the mind and heart of a true seeker, rather than taking one verse or statement of mine and attacking it with your skepticism. That combination is not producing true knowledge in you, only more confusion. As you read it, ask Lord Jesus to reveal Himself to you. Many have prayed such a simple seeker’s prayer, when it is genuinely out of felt need, and have been overwhelmed by God’s loving answer. Look within yourself not to find “god” but to find your need, your sin; turn from it and look to God the Creator and Saviour embodied in Jesus Christ, to find forgiveness, peace, joy, and purpose. |
|
said this on 11 Jun 2009 1:39:02 AM EDT
Glad that you agree that truth for a person remains what he believes in... Forget constitutional right or legal rights which can be twisted... Prime aim of any civilized person should be to live in harmony and peace with environment and other elements of environment and desist from acts that cause peace and harmony to be shattered... What you conveyed as "witnessing truth" can sway any ignorant person but not an aware person... Your description of witnessing something can be ripped apart by anyone with common sense because it is out of time with basics of life and you will have no answer... But that shouldn't stop you from doing what you want to and every action has a reaction and you will get the reaction as per audience... Ignorant, unaware, poor people who are unable to think beyond next day needs will be the most receptive students for you as it will give them a false hope which will then be fed to them at least once in a week.... As ignorance will reduce and awareness of target audience will increase, you will face difficulty.
In this world we are living, everything sells... Howsoever ludicrous statement you may have, it will find an audience and followers. |
|
said this on 11 Jun 2009 12:53:59 PM EDT
Rohit From Rigveda X;121:1 is Genesis 1:3 In the Bigning. Read if you have the copy of Rigveda.
Read from Upanishad 1:1:3 is Luke 1:35 After creating Skk,water,earth now to provide for and save needed saviour and He gave birth to mankind from Himself. RigvedaX:90:2 is Rev 1:2, Rev 22:12 where is mentioned about Alfa And Omega in your own books I wonder how can you deny your own Regveda. Read Rigveda X:90:7 it is all over and over again mentioned about Jesus Christ. Read Yajurveda xxx1:18 is Roman 10:9. I have tons of referevce from Hindu Dharampuranas where I can Quote about Christ. Are you willing to hear more, if so I am willing to share with my whole heart. This is Asha from North India |
|
said this on 12 Jun 2009 8:01:58 AM EDT
Asha...
Let's start off from this... There are four yugas... Satyug (Where Dharma is 100%), Treta Yug (Where Dharma is 75%), Dwapar Youg (Where Dharma is 50%) and Kaliyug (Where Dharma is 25%). The sacred texts of Aryans, you refer to, have been carefully destroyed by colonists and muslim invaders. If Rigveda had to say about Jesus Christ then you would be reading Bible and not Rigveda. Even if it is true then Jesus should have recreated Rigveda in Sanskrit and not created Bible. And if you still insist to refer, then you should know that in this Kaliyuga, human form of god will be Kalki who will be born to a brahmin (Brahmin = Learned, Wise, Knowing Truth). I rely on Bhagwad Gita... Bhagwad Gita is science and crux of all vedas... Nothing that I have said is beyond what Bhagwad Gita says. Lastly, all religions will quote something from Hinduism or similar to Hinduism and will always have a reference to Hinduism because of Sanatan characteristic of this dharma... What they will not have is freedom to explore truth. |
|
said this on 16 Jun 2009 8:20:14 PM EDT
Rohit...
From Bhagwat geeta 9;34 "Manmano bhava Madbaktho, this is the first line of the whole text where Bible Exodus 20;2-3 says same thing that : Iam the Lord God Almighty, You should have no other God. What about BhagwatGeeta 4;31( where Bible= John19;2,18,23,29,33.) Also about the true meaning of Brahmin in Bhagavat Gita 1;7 Asmaakam thu visishtaya,Thaani bodha dwijothama" A perect brahmin is twice born. No body achieve title Brahmin untill is born second time by spirit (John 3;3) Have you red Bhavishya Mahapurana written by Vedavyasa before 3000 years of Jesus where he pridicted all about Jesus. Woul you mind to read book#3 chapter2 in 34 verses. that where king Saka asked to Jesus who you are and the son of man which is Jesus replied "Ko bhavanithi tham praaha, Sobhovaachamudaanwitha,Es haputhram cha maam vidhi,Kumaaree garbha samahavam,Asam Esa Maaseeha nama"' That is called Mokshdwaar, means Way of salvation. If you still interested in more reffrences I will be more than willing to share. God bless you. Asha |
|
said this on 11 Jun 2009 1:03:24 PM EDT
Rohit,
You say repeatedly that it is the ignorant who will be the most receptive students to the Gospel. You stated nine points which you claim are areas where your "knowledge of Christianity" has increased. Those very nine points show total ignorance ( ignorance does not mean lack of intelligence; it means lack of information) of the teachings of Christ. It appears that it is ignorance which keeps men from Truth, not the opposite. However, you are in the majority, as Yeshua (Jesus) Himself said, ""Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."Matt 7:13-14 (NKJV) If you have met people who are bad ambassadors for the Son of the Living God, do not let that surprise you either. For Jesus also said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' Matt 7:21-23 (NKJV) I hear anger, bitterness and ridicule in your most recent post. I have sensed these things throughout all of your articles. Now you berate and ridicule the very people you claim "Christianity" is "exploiting." You say they are unable to think beyond what their next day needs will be. I find the poor to be anything but easily swayed, dumb, mindless people. Indeed, it is the rich who usually have there senses dulled by all of the luxuries and distractions the world has to offer. The poor are most often hard workers who understand that life is not easy. The poor know what it is to suffer. They understand better than the rich the truth that either God is not good to let this world be so full of suffering, or there is something very wrong with the world in its present state, and they are seeking God for answers. The rich don't really care. Their bellies are full, their money and comfort lulls them into self-centeredness and a false sense of security. So, contrary to what you suggest, it is those who live in ease who are most easily swayed by false religion, and the poor, the despised, the needy, the "foolish" who understand their sin and the fallen state of this world, and their need for a God who Loves them enough to die in their place so that they can live forever wrapped in the arms of His love. To such people, "witnessing" does not need to be done by bearing gifts of worldy, temporary things. The poor already know that life goes on quite well without these meaningless trappings. The poor are more likely to know what is important in life: LOVE. Loving God, and loving one another. So humble yourselves under God’s mighty hand, so that he may exalt you in due time. Cast all your care upon him, for he ever cares for you. 1 Peter 5:6-7 (MontgomeryNT) Rohit, Examine your heart. If your ultimate goal is peace in your environment, in this life, on this earth, you will live in frustration and disappointment, and anger. This earth is fallen, under the curse, and under the rule of the evil one, until The Lord Jesus Christ returns to reign and put Satan under His feet as the Scriptures predict. Until then, no amount of striving to produce a peaceful environment will bring peace to this planet. Jesus is the Prince of Peace. I ask you, in all honestly and as humbly as I can, to seek the Kingdom of God. For the things of this world are passing away, and evil is indeed multiplying. I challenge you to go to some quiet place alone and ask the God of the Bible if He is real. Tell Him you indeed are seeking the Truth and you are indeed seeking to know God. Tell Him that you are willling to have your whole world turned upside down, inside out, if He is the Truth and if you have been wrong. Call on the Name of Jesus Christ and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. If the teachings of Christ are "ludicrous nonsense" as you suggest, your answer will be silence. But if Jesus Christ is indeed Who he claims to be, you will receive an answer. I pray there remains in you an honest seeking to know God in Spirit and in Truth. I earnestly pray that the anger in your posts comes from frustration because you have not yet gotten a clear picture of Jesus. I pray your anger is not a rebellious anger against the Authority of God, who is Righteous and Holy. May God have mercy on all of us. Love, In the Name of the One who first loved us, Yeshua HaMashiach Pat |
|
said this on 12 Jun 2009 9:37:51 PM EDT
As with your comments about Africa, Rohit, your attitudes toward the poor, illiterate, and hungry of this world are shamelessly arrogant and insulting. Haven't you noticed that all the examples I have cited to you and all those who have joined the dialog to speak up for their faith in Christ have been educated people? The true victims of the murder of Graham Staines and his family were the lepers whom he loved and served. In shock over their friend's murder, they said, "The Hindus would have nothing to do with us, they told us we were suffering for our past deeds. Only he showed love to us. Now how can they complain that we follow Jesus Christ, the God of love?" (from "Burnt Alive" the Story of Graham Staines).
|
|
said this on 11 Jun 2009 5:23:07 AM EDT
A condensed version of the Bible in video form on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nv3fGZdXlM&feature=PlayList&p=1C61AF17B1E7B947&index=0&playnext=1 |
|
said this on 12 Jun 2009 2:08:29 PM EDT
Thanks for your comments, Cathy.
unfortunately, you tried to make Christianity inclusive but here is the basic question. Is there any other truth than Jesus Christ? The truth is Christianity is exclusive about Jesus Christ. All are invited and who choose to come is secondary. It seems you want to project this secondary aspect of invitation as foundation and support your belief. Bible teaches all are invited in the name of Jesus but before anyone comes he has to reject all others, and these two things are actually one!!! Your attempt to zoom on one aspect of invitation and claim Jesus' lordship and gospel, does not make sense for christian inclusivity -at least to me ! Today's Christians are advertising and marketing Jesus Christ as Savior God and for that promotions like giving out free samples (food, cloths etc to poor). This very things is opposed by Hindus and people of other religions. Why to hide your true intentions??? Your above comment is classic example where Jesus Christ emerged supreme after all inclusivity of Christianity. Compare your way of inclusiveness with Hindus inclusiveness. When you talk with Hindus they will presume your inclusiveness is just like theirs because you use same word (but with different and hidden meaning/context). They will accept you as friend, wellwisher, sympathiser of Hinduism but when they will know and understand full implications of inclusiveness of Christianity as understood by you, they will feel deceived. Personally, i see no reason to hide the truth in nice words because it is really a deception!!! Words/languages are used to explain what is our real thoughts and not for hiding them. Rohit and likes, are Hindus who are not true followers of Hinduism when they reject Jesus because of the all inclusive nature of true Hinduism. That is why they always attack on the aspect of social service of Christians. That was the reason I isolated the exclusiveness of Christianity and Islam and freedom of following truth as believed by Hindus. I just overviewed Rohits another post and he accepted a person can believe anything which may not be truth. This can be further questioned that how to acertain the real truth? can hinduism be that truth? why? Can Jesus Christ be the truth? why? The discussion should focus on proving ones position with reasonable explaination. Let other person judge and accept/reject after receiving the knowledge. It will be good if Rohit can put down his faith to help others what exactly he is following and why? I am sure Cathy will do the same. The readers will choose what is the truth as per their own judgement. There can be debate/discussion later on about the faiths of Rohit and Cathy but it will keep us focused. It is meaningless to question why Christians give food and cloths to poor why never explain why Shudras were not treated eqaul with higher castes and why hinduism failed to take care of his own poor? The answers cannot define or improve on the truth of Christianity or Hinduism. Such arguments increase heat but sheldom produce any light. i am still waiting to receive answer from Rohit.As per Rohit everyone has right to believe and follow what they believe as truth. One should not try to invade into belief of others. My humble question is why Christians are excluded from this right by Rohit??? Why self contradiction? |
|
said this on 12 Jun 2009 10:29:54 PM EDT
Akbar, I see you are quite concerned that a message should be presented with clarity and with no actual or intended deception. I am totally in agreement. If you go back and read my paragraph, you will see that I restated the meaning of “exclusive” in reference to Islam and Christianity as is commonly used today. I did not deny that meaning, it certainly is valid in some sense. I simply wished to bring out another understanding of the word “inclusive” and to bring out in that sense the “inclusiveness” of the message about Christ. That sense is obscured when we only speak of the first sense. I did not commit any deception nor do I ever advocate any deception of any kind by anyone! When I speak with Hindus and others who are not familiar with the Bible’s teachings, I am very careful to explain terms. In fact, let’s not lose sight of the fact that that was one of my main points in my original article! “Skill #2: Learn to express gospel truths avoiding Christian jargon.”
Once a Hindu lady came and asked if she could join my group of ladies who meet regularly for prayer and Bible study, so she could “learn to pray the Christian way.” For a year she met with us and watched and joined in everything we did. None of us ever spoke to her about converting, none of us ever criticized her other gods or book or religion. We simply “included” her in everything we did. One day she and I were talking and based on her expressed interest in Jesus Christ I asked her if she wanted to accept Jesus as her Lord and Savior. She replied that she had already done that by herself! Then she said, “Cathy, the day after I prayed to Lord Jesus, the next morning I got up to pray to my gods as usual, and suddenly I thought, ‘What are these things – they are nothing!’ And I haven’t felt like praying to them again since then!” When a seeker finds that one God alone meets all her needs, it is obvious none others are needed. There is no need to force the issue of rejecting other gods. And it is not only Hindus who worship “other gods.” Here in America among Christians it is very common to speak of the “idols” that we all keep, that are constantly promoted in our culture – money, jobs, cars, etc. Even the Apostle Paul equated greed with idolatry (Colossians 3:5). We all have idols we need to leave behind in order to worship the true God with a true heart. No culture is exempt. So please give me the benefit of the doubt, Akbar. These are the things I both teach and practice. Careful, clear instruction for seekers, hiding nothing, words and life both clearly visible to those around me. I cannot claim all Christians do like that, but virtually all whom I know personally do. Remember, you can judge a follower of Christ by the standard of Christ himself, and those who are totally off base are clearly not followers, despite a “name” or “community.” But while you are judging them, be careful also to judge yourself! (Matthew 7:1-5, John 7:24). |
|
said this on 13 Jun 2009 5:20:53 AM EDT
Akbar,
I am for freedom of belief and not freedom of religious torch bearers. Both are different. First one means seeking truth on one's own efforts. The second one usually results in violence. Is there any contradiction? |
|
said this on 15 Jun 2009 3:15:28 AM EDT
Dear Brother Rohit,
can you explain more? Every person should have a right to choose one's religion. Freedom of religion is basic right of every human being. Such cannot bring violence. Violence is result of action/reactions of people who force others to follow their own religion and beliefs. i will be glad if you will care to explain why Christians are excluded to follow their own beliefs which includes spreading of good news of Jesus Christ. Second, don't be paranoid and think Cathy invites people by selectively choosing people. I came to this board on my own and it seems i am the only one who gave you email for further unrestricted discussion. Third, discussion ends when a person stops his journey towards truth and faith. As i said before, it is always hard to understand opposing views. Four, we all are ignorent and chosen our own ways. We try and like to reach God by doing good. Our intentions are good but can we achieve our goal? Tell me how will you achieve moksha as you understand it? Do you think you should not be punished for overspeeding just because you have tons of good karma? What is your opinion about justice? These are the questions to munch... email me and we will explore answers together - here or on other board... what do you say, Rohit? God bless you... |
|
said this on 12 Jun 2009 2:35:10 PM EDT
Rohit brought a good point. This very point shows we believe what we want to believe.
Rohit said: One old example is earth is center of universe, sun revolves around it and that it is still... I am stating this because someone believed in this statement and this belief caused lot of violence towards believers and grief to torch bearers of belief... Ultimately revolving term prevailed... But even today there are believers who believe that Earth is center of Universe. The truth is one can still believe that earth is center of universe and still remain within the perimeter of science and I am not joking. Speed/motion is relative term and depends on frame of reference. If you take sun at the origin of frame of reference then you will have heliocentric universe. in fact you can define any point as origin for frame of reference and observe, including earth, your home and make it center of universe. The eqautions will change but not the truth-final outcome. If this is hard to believe then find a capable physics teacher and learn from him or email me akbarmustak@yahoo.com The point here is ignorence is not virtue of illiterates only. We commonly known as literate do not know many things but pretend we know enough to argue. Unfortunately we are wrong. i hope now you understand importance of learned to go to seeker. it may happen that a person never had thought he needs improvement. That is why we have schools where we send our children -even though they are not seekers!!! Same way, the knowledge of God is not saught by all but it has eternal value. It is duty of learned to distribute this knowledge to all -irrespective of cast, creed and color!!! Let me reiterate, it is easy to argue but difficult to truly understand the opposing ideas. When we understand this truth and try to reduce friction, heat reduces but light slowly shines out!!! may God, the creator of universe bless you as you learn more about Him ! |
|
said this on 13 Jun 2009 5:58:18 AM EDT
Cathy that text of a brahmin you referred to... If you studied Hinduism then you should know who a brahmin is...
As you patiently wait for other persons carefully selected by yourselves belonging to various caste (Caste as you understand it), to join in and support you, I advise all who joined and in future would like to join to go to this website http://www.atheists.org For kind information of all, who revel in casteism, I am from the fourth caste. As you continue to go through a never ending debate, I would like to take leave but do go to the website it will provide answers in a much better manner than I am able to due to my limited knowledge. Peace, Happiness for All Jai Sri Ram |
|
said this on 13 Jun 2009 10:54:00 PM EDT
In your parting comments, Rohit, you refer to the atheist website. Though I haven’t read through the website, I did read Richard Dawkins’ book “The God Delusion.” It virtually falls apart in your hands, having so little to commend it except his uninformed, eloquent wit. Like so many of our non-Christian antagonists, Dawkins attacks straw men, not the real Lord Jesus Christ, or even the real follower of Lord Jesus Christ.
After all that has been said, it has been an interesting challenge for me to read and respond to you, Rohit. You have helped sharpen my thinking and given me a lot of new insights into the thinking of Hindus. I wish you peace and happiness too. Remember that evangelism is intrinsic to the claims of Lord Jesus and to the beliefs of His disciples, so as you allow freedom of belief, ours includes taking the initiative to share the good news of Jesus with others. If an evangelist finds his way to you, my prayer is that s/he will be a good representative of Lord Jesus and that you will either entertain calm, respectful discussion, or politely say “No thank you.” For the rest of you who have been joining in, thank you for your participation. I have enjoyed and profited from reading all of your comments too. You can feel free to continue discussing or ask a new question. |
|
said this on 15 Jun 2009 2:49:03 AM EDT
Besides, is God granting moksha (salvation) based on a relative scale? We somehow miss this point when we compare ourselves with others.
Hello Cathy, thanks for your explaination. I have one simple question, "Would you have 'explained' the Hindu lady about worshipping Jesus exclusively if she had not done so by herself?" How many Christians will not correct the lady? Whenever a Christian believer/missionary/pastor gets a chance he will teach exclusiveness -only Jesus of Christianity because that is the truth and whole truth. I cannot see how you can add meaning to "inclusiveness" of Ch.ristianty by claiming all are invited to Christ. Is there any religion -Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism which does not invite people from all strata of society? Such inclusiveness is not unique to Christianity or Christ. Using Hindu words -in efforts of making things understandable is actually shrouding true meaning of the original words. For example, from your recommended site I quickly found: Besides, is God granting moksha (salvation) based on a relative scale? We somehow miss this point when we compare ourselves with others. if you replace salvation with "moksha" then you are changing complete meaning of the word "moksha". Moksha as assumed by a Hindu is freedom/release of soul from making rounds of incarnation/rebirth. Salvation is saving of soul from the judgement of God which has nothing to do with rebirth. Innocent Hindu will not be explained the difference until after he accept Christ and became christian. Avoiding christian jargon and using hindu terminology without explaining full implications/meaning is a kind of deception whether you like to accept it or not. Few months ago when Oprah Winfrey and her new age movement used word salvation and likes to promote their beliefs. I had seen frustration of Christians for hijacking their terminology. It was intersting to see Christians measured by their own scales. Anyway, I hope you understood what I meant by yours deception. When I judge others, I don't say i am better than them. Somehow Christians pretend and preach "judge not" but in every area of life they (we all) judge other persons and decide their actions and reactions. Just because you do not put your judgements in words to hear for others, does not make you "not judging". Bible teaches not to judge and be arrogant thinking we are above correction. That is Bible teaching. Bible does not say "be a fool and judge not and make the same mistake". I am sure you know difference between not judging and giving a second chance. |
|
said this on 16 Jun 2009 4:13:32 PM EDT
Akbar, you are rightly concerned about deception. It is an issue, and there are Christ followers who err in that way when presenting the message of Christ to others. I am opposed to deception by anyone. You asked if I would have explained to the Hindu lady about worshiping Christ alone if she had not come to that realization herself (actually through Holy Spirit’s revealing it). The answer is Yes, of course I would. In fact, that lady certainly heard about Jesus as the only Way Truth and Life during our year’s worth of Bible studies. I didn’t have to make it the one point I hammer on to her as a Hindu. I used that story to illustrate not “how Christians don’t deceive people” but to illustrate how we don’t force people into premature “decisions.” This is another common objection of Hindus, isn’t it? Forcing people into conversions they don’t truly understand, and also making idol worship a big issue. Many Christians do these things out of cultural ignorance and insensitivity and I object to it. I know that Hindus are very sensitive on this, they feel that Christian disdain of “idol worshipers” and react against it. That is very understandable. Within our own circles, we Christians speak of the idols in our own closets and need to get rid of them. There are many sins and untruths a seeker must repent of in order to find salvation in Christ, idol worship is just one of them.
Slowly, patiently teaching all the truths of the gospel over time is not deceptive, it is just the opposite. You said, . “Innocent Hindu will not be explained the difference until after he accept Christ and became christian.” But my illustration was to show just the opposite – that the principle I operate by is not to get someone to accept Christ before knowing what it is all about. And to show that I don’t bash Hindus for being “idol worshipers”! You said, “Using Hindu words -in efforts of making things understandable is actually shrouding true meaning.” I agree that that can happen, but it doesn’t have to happen. We are carrying on this discussion in English. But in India, what language would be used between two friends discussing spiritual issues? Hindi, or Tamil, or whatever their mother tongue is. In that case, they will use the words that exist in that language. In my Hindi Bible, I see the word Moksha and mukti used all over the place. Of course they have different meanings in the biblical context than in Hindu context. So the Hindi-speaking evangelist would have to use the word moksha and explain its different meaning to the Hindi-speaking Hindu. Akbar, the Hindus I mix with, when speaking English, use words like heaven, hell, Sheitan, church, and Sunday school though these are Judeo-Christian concepts, and they are not using them according to biblical meanings. It is just what you pointed out about Oprah and her “salvation.” I too thought of the irony of that when it happened. None of us can stop others from using words the way they want to, it just makes our job as evangelists more challenging, to use words carefully and teach carefully when we are trying to convey biblical truths. So why do English-speaking Christians suddenly insert a Sanskrit / Hindi word like moksha into their dialog about spiritual truths? Why should they not stick with the English “salvation?” (Note that I am not advocating this practice, only explaining why some do it). One thing we want to communicate is the biblical truth that “Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.“ (Col. 3:11). Another of the common objections of Hindus and others is that Christianity is a western religion. And so let it be, if you want to talk about religion, which I don’t want to do! We want to talk about Christ, and since He is the creator and redeemer, he is universal – He doesn’t belong to one people or culture. So some missionaries like to use terms familiar to their audience and simply infuse them with new meanings. This can be okay so long as the teaching is done clearly and “salvation decisions” are not forced prematurely. I don’t like to get repetitive about the concept of “exclusivity”. I did agree that Jesus is the only true God and this is what is meant by the phrase “Christianity is an exclusive religion.” I accept that phrase as meaningful if we are careful to communicate also what it does NOT mean. Words convey not only meanings but feelings too, Akbar. The word “exclusive” in English conveys a feeling of snobbery, like the British club in a bygone colonial era where people of color were not allowed. We do not want to associate such a feeling with the gospel, that is the reason I avoid using the phrase even though it is an accurate word. While openly preaching that Christ is the only way of salvation, we want to make it clear that the invitation to salvation is open equally to all people of all races, creeds, languages, etc. And the entrance to salvation is the same for all – repentance from sin and faith in Christ. Akbar, I feel that you and I are quite close in convictions and beliefs. I hope you feel that way too. I hope this is to you a friendly discussion in which we both can learn from each other, as I feel. I have not had the privilege of living in India so I like to learn all I can from those that do! |
|
said this on 18 Jun 2009 4:59:08 PM EDT
Hello Ms. Douglas,
I am going to be leading an evangelism training in the month of August and our desire is to thoroughly train our preachers to effectively preach the Gospel to people of every religion and background. I have not been able to find anyone who is experienced in witnessing to Hindus. In a Google search I found your awesome article and I was wondering if you could come sometime in mid-August to give us some training in how to witness to Hindus. Please contact me as soon as possible. Thank you so much. Joshua Carvalho |